Sunday, November 22, 2015

November 2015 draft tree for I-L161 "Isles"

These trees are getting bigger and I don't know how to add them here in a readable format. But if you click here you should be able to download the original tree which is ~150kB.

Friday, November 20, 2015

November 2015 I-L621 "Dinaric and Disles" Draft Tree

The trees are getting bigger and harder to read, and I don't know how to post them in their original format. But if you click here to download  you should get the original ~142kB .png file and you can open it and zoom in on the part of the tree you are interested in. 

Wednesday, September 30, 2015

September draft tree for I-L161

This tree includes the second Big Y result for Isles-C1. The two Isles-C1 men share 4 SNPs not found in Isles-C2. One of these is available at A7729 and I encourage all Isles-C1 men to order it at this link: order A7729

Tuesday, September 22, 2015

September draft tree for I-L621

SNPs A7358 and A7318 (below A1328) are added.
Also, a new Big Y result (kit #402724) in the I-A2423 haplogroup.

Friday, August 28, 2015

Updated text: August 24, 2015 Tree for I-L621

I think you should be able to see the information on this tree. It shows the new I-A2512 branch. Probably there are more additions compared to the earlier I-L621 trees.

A fourth major branch of I-CTS10228 "Dinaric" and two new SNPs available for testing: Almost everyone in I-CTS10228 belongs to one of three branches: I-S17250, I-Y4460 or I-Z17855. But there are a few people who are CTS10228+ and S17250- Y4460- Z17855-. We now know that there is a fourth branch called I-A2512. Two people have done Big Ys which show that they belong to this group: kit 4605 from the "Jewish Dinaric" cluster, and kit N80837 who has Greek ancestry and is part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster. Kit 54093 has also received Y2512+ results from YSeq, he is also part of the Mediterranean Dinaric cluster and more specifically the New Mexico Dinaric cluster. Finally there is an anonymous sample (GS000018440-DID) from Chuvashia that was sequenced by the Estonian Biocentre and found to belong to I-A2512, see: A2512 (position 13203040) is available for testing at YSeq and people who have already received CTS10228+ and S17250- Y4460- Z17855- should test A2512. That is a very small number of people, most Dinarics do not need to test A2512, please ask us if you have any questions. Another novel variant at position 9853064 is shared by kits 4605 and N80837 and by GS000018440-DID but there is no test available currently. Finally, kit N80837 Greek ancestry shares the novel variant 18741220 with the Chuvashia sample GS000018440-DID but the Jewish Dinaric man kit 4605 does not have this SNP. 18741220 is available for testing at YSeq, it is called A7134 and it is recommended for the New Mexico Dinaric cluster and other members of the Mediterranean cluster, and anyone who has already received A2512+ results. You can see a new tree with these branches here:

And you can see some of the groups discussed here: I apologize in advance if I have made any errors in this post.

(Tree updated 21 Sept 2015 to correct error in a kit number)

Friday, June 19, 2015

New I-M26 tree after 5 Big Ys for M26+ L160- people

The current FTDNA haplotree shows around 21 branches of I-M26, and 20 of these branches belong to I-L160 and everyone else is lumped together in I-M26*:
In fact, the I-P37 project has known for several years about many other branches which are M26+ L160-.

 The I-L277 * and I-L247 groups are very small. The I-PF6947 group is bigger (at least outside of Sardinia/in North America), about a third of I-M26 in Ireland might belong to I-PF6947. But by far most of the M26+ L160- people belong to what is called the I-L672* branch on the tree above. This includes the large group that Ken Nordtvedt nicknamed M26*-"France" many years ago, it has the distinctive marker values DYS391=9 and DYS425=null. It also includes a group with DYS413=19,22 and many other distinctive marker values (name in this group include Riddick, Bigham, Zimmerman, Odgers etc). And it includes many other people who don't fit into any of these marker based clusters.

You can see all of these groups at the top of the FTDNA I-P37 project STR results page:

In December 2014 two people in I-PF6947 and three people in I-L672*  in M26*-France ordered the Big Y test, and now the tests are completed and we have this tree:

Because three people in the M26-France group did Big Y, we were able to find two branches. I recommend that all M26-France people test Y14720 and Y14722, or the Big Y. As more people in M26-France do Big Y or similar tests, we will quickly find new branches.

Only two people in I-PF6947 have done Big Y, so we only have one branch which shows the 18 SNPs that they share. As soon as a third person in I-PF6947 does Big Y we will be able to add another branch to the tree. And now PF6947, Y15579 etc. have been added to the official YFull tree:
At this point, it would be most useful for I-PF6947 people to do additional Big Y tests, perhaps the Crowley family could pool funds to order one Big Y, and the Healy/O'Donoghue family could do the same.

What tests should the other M26+ L672+ L160- people order? A Big Y would be useful for anyone, because we now have 5 Big Y results for comparison, Beyond that, I recommend a Y11222 test, I expect that all of these people will be Y11222+.

PF6947 is already available at FTDNA for $39. We have requested some of the new SNPs from FTDNA but have informed us that they will not add uncommon SNPs to their catalog at present. I suggest that you order the SNPs I have recommended (Y11222, Y14720, Y14722) from which is headed by Thomas Krahn, formerly of FTDNA. SNPs at YSeq cost $17.50 each. You will need to give a new cheek scrape sample, and there is a one time cost of approximately $5 for the sample kit and shipping.

Friday, June 5, 2015

I2a-M423 SNP panel test at, only $88

YSEQ has released a I2a-M423 SNP panel which covers 32 SNPs, the cost is only $88 (the same cost as two SNP tests at FTDNA, if this is your first test at YSeq you will need a cheek swab kit which is approximately $5):

I can recommend this test for all Dinaric-North and Dinaric-South people, and it also would be interesting for I-L161 Isles people who don't match any of the Isles groups very well. If you have already done Big Y there is no need to do this panel. Some more comments are below--Bernie

1) I2a-M423 includes the "Dinaric" "Disles" and "Isles" groups.

2) The YSeq M423 panel is very good for people who have not done STR marker
testing. For example, it's a very good test for people who have done the
23andMe test and who have received a paternal haplogroup of I2a2, I2a2a or
I2a2b. Or people who already know they are I2a-L621 (Dinaric and Disles) or
I2a-L161 (Isles) from some other test.
Of course, I recommend that people also do a 12, 25, or 37 STR marker test

3) The YSeq panel does not include some minor SNPs that have been included
in some trees (P41.2/M359.2, P61, V19, PF6316, CTS8849). In my opinion the
SNPs in the YSeq M423 panel are much more important than these minor SNPs.

4) The YSeq M423 panel is very good for all Dinaric people, all
Dinaric-North and all Dinaric-South. We can predict results for S17250 for
some Dinarics based on STR markers, but it is impossible to predict results
for any of the 14 more specific SNPs listed for CTS10228+ S17250- people
and CTS10228+ S17250+ people.

5) The YSeq M423 panel is very good for all Isles people. But in most
cases, if an Isles person has 37, 67, or 111 marker results we can predict
his results for these SNPs. Please feel free to email me or post here for
specific recommendations.

6) The Yseq M423 panel will not give much information to Disles people.

7) If you have done Big Y or similar tests, there is no need to do the YSeq
M423 panel. If you have already tested some of the SNPs on the panel,
please feel free to email me or post here for specific recommendations.

8) If you are a member of the FTDNA I-P37 (I2a) project, please send me a
copy of your YSeq results if you wish, because we have no connection to
YSeq and we will not be notified of your results.

Friday, May 22, 2015

The difference between dates of nodes and dates of clade expansions in the Y chromosome tree

People used to ask Ken Nordtvedt all the time "How old is I-L233 'Western'" (for example). And Ken  made the point that there were two different ages to consider:
1) when did the  most recent common ancestor of I-L223 "Western" and its sister clade I-L1287* "Alpine" live?
2) when did the most recent common ancestor of all living I-L233 'Western' men live?

I think usually people were interested in question 1) but Ken was more interested in 2).  He made the point that for all of human history almost every male line died out/daughtered out, and human populations stayed nearly the same, but at some point in the last few thousand years, populations started to increase continuously up to the present. For some Y-DNA haplogroups (I-M26 "Sardinian") this expansion started 8,000+ years ago, but for others it was much more recent (maybe the last 2,500 years for I-L233 for example).

Ken had some useful trees on his website that showed this difference with what he called arrowheads indicating the start of the expansion ---->
Ken's tree from 2011

I tried to make his trees easier to interpret with tree drawings like these:
my blog in 2011 from wayback machine

Recently several papers have been published making Ken's point about very few surviving male lineages until recent expansions, see Dienekes' summary of here: (This paper talks about recent superfathers and starlike expansion in Europe for I1, R1a and R1b, and long branches with deep-rooting nodes" for E1b-M35, G2a-L31, I2-P215, J2-M172, L-M11 and T-M70. Of course there are recent superfathers and starlike expansion in some branches of I2, for example for I-L233 "Western" and I-CTS10228 "Dinaric".

And I like this paper's Fig 1 which uses triangles to show the recent expansions:

Monday, March 9, 2015

I-CTS10228 "Dinaric" samples in Estonian Biocentre Data

The Estonian Biocentre released 307 Y chromosome sequences as mentioned in Dienekes' blog.

The sequences are from all over the world and especially from places not covered in the 1000 Genomes Project, for example, Eastern Europe. You can see a summary of the samples by clicking Y_data_metainfo.xlsx which is the file at the bottom of this directory

There are 13 samples in haplogroup I: 5 samples listed as I1 (from Russia(2), Belarus, Ukraine, and from an Aboriginal Australian). There is one sample listed as I3 from the country of Georgia. There were seven samples listed as I2a, and they all belong to CTS10228 "Dinaric":

The I-P37 project obtained the sequences for the seven I2a samples and compared them to Big Y results and we are in the process of comparing them to the samples from the Hallast study.

See the YFull tree
our most recent I-L621 tree
and the STR results page of the I-P37 project

Estonian Biocenter samples #18357 & 18359 from Belarus have CTS10228>Y4460>Y3118>Y5598>CTS5779
Two kits in the I2a Project have this result, and when we compared these four I-CTS5779 sequences, we found no shared SNPs below CTS5779.

Samples #18429 from Bosnia and #20364 from Herzegovina have CTS10228>S17250*. They share some novel variants with each other that were not tested in Big Ys. There are several Big Y results in this I-S17250* group, but we found no shared SNPs below S17250.

Sample #18440 from Russia (Chuvash) has a I-CTS10228* result. There are only two known I-CTS10228* people in the I-P37 project, one is from Poland and the other belongs to the "Jewish Dinaric cluster". Sample 18440 shares two novel variants with the person in the Jewish Dinaric cluster. The positions (Chr Y: 13203040 and 9853064) are close to the centromere and it may be difficult to design primers to test these SNPs individually. We have asked a related Jewish Dinaric cluster member to test 13203040 at

Sample #21452 from Russia (Vepsas ethnic group, from north of St. Petersburg) has CTS10228>Y4460* (ie. Y3118- S8201-). A Big Y result (ancestry Riga, 1600s) shares two positions with 21452: 21835651 and 22669350. Another shared NV is at 22271330, but it is inside the 125bp repeat region.

Sample #21481 from Lithuania has CTS10228>Y4460>Y3118*  (ie. Y5598-) result. There are three Big Y results in I-Y3118* but we found no additional shared novel variants.

Monday, January 12, 2015

Tree for I-L161 "Isles"

We have several Big Y tests in progress, so I hope we have more updates to this tree soon.

Hint: sometimes it's hard to see the details on this tree. It might be best to save this tree to your computer/device, and then open the tree.

30 Jan 2015: Edited to add:
 The tree above includes Big Y results for several L161+ L1498+ people and the branch at the bottom has three Big Y results for L161+ PF4135+ people. (This tree has a branch at the top for L161+ L1498- L161- but no Big Ys for this group are included).

Tree for I-L621

My New Year's resolution is to post results here promptly. But maybe these trees will contain some obvious errors, so please add a comment or email if you see some mistakes. We borrowed the template for this tree from another site, I think an I-M223 site.