Friday, September 12, 2014

The Disles group is complex

The "Disles" group is rare. We give it the nickname Disles because it is related to the very common Dinaric group but it is found very often in the British Isles while the Dinaric group is usually in Eastern and Central Europe. (Disles= D for Dinaric + isles for British Isles).

And there are some important STR marker differences between Dinaric and Disles. The most important is that Dinaric has the rare value DYS565=9, while Disles has DYS565=11 like many other haplogroups.

And now we discovering more SNPs and learning of SNP differences between Dinaric and Disles. For example all Dinarics are CTS5966+ and CTS10228+ while Disles people so far are negative (ancestral) for these two SNPs.

One Disles man did the Geno 2.0 test and the Big Y test earlier this year (kit N52277 who is Australian with British paternal ancestry). He is L621+ but CTS4022- CTS10936- CTS11768- L147- CTS5966- CTS4002- (see figure 1 below). Our working assumption was that all Disles men would have the same results.

But in August another Disles man (kit N113464 who is American with likely paternal ancestry) did the Big Y test, and he is L621+ and CTS4022+ CTS10936+  CTS11768+ L147- CTS5966- CTS4002-. There is another man with paternal ancestry from Poland who has exactly the same SNP results and we have been calling him a "Dinaric cousin". The American and the Polish man are not closely related becaue they have 67 markers quite different from each other.

So now we have two groups of Disles which we are calling Disles B (a more recent common ancestor with the Dinaric group) and Disles A (a more distant common ancestor with the Dinaric group).

We are recommending that all Disles people do additional testing to determine which Disles group they belong to.
--the cheapest test we are recommending is CTS10936 which costs $39 at Family Tree DNA.
--but, it's possible that some Disles people might have differences at CTS4002 or CTS11768 or other SNPs (see Figure 3 below). If you are interested we recommend the Geno 2.0 test which includes all the SNPs shown on the tree, it is currently $159.95 plus $9.95 shipping to the US (higher to other countries):
click to buy Geno 2.0

And the best test is the expensive Big Y or other "full Y chromosome" sequencing.

Please let me know if you have questions at and please inform me if you order one of these tests

Tuesday, September 9, 2014

New SNPs for I-L233 "Western"; A417 has been confirmed

This tree summarizes six Big Y tests for I-L233 "Western". The Big Ys sequenced around 10 million base pairs on each person's Y chromosome, and the six men had differences at two SNPs called A4223 and A417. The German-ancestry man at top was ancestral for both SNPs (Y4223- and A417-), the two Irish-ancestry men in the middle were derived for both (Y4223+ and A417+), and the three men at the bottom were Y4223+ and A417-.

Dozens of additional new SNPs were discovered in each man's Big Y results but at this point we have good evidence for only Y4223 and A417. When more Big Y tests are completed we will find a SNP specific to the branch at the top of the tree (for example), and we will find more branches not shown on this tree.

A417 is available for purchase at FTDNA and another company called for $39, and six people not shown on the tree have tested A417 as an individual test. Five were A417- and one was A417+. So in summary, twelve L233+ men have tested A417, and nine were A417- and three were A417+.

The five people who received A417- results from these individual tests could be Y4223+ or Y4223-. The one person who received A417+ results from his individual test is sure to be Y4223+ based on the tree above.

Unfortunately Y4223 is not available at FTDNA or for individual testing, but we have requested that FTDNA add it to their catalog.

From this testing so far, around 25% of L233+ men belong to the A417+ group. We can compare the 67 markers of the three A417+. and they are not very similar to each other. So the three A417+ men are not closely related, and the A417 mutation happened well over 1,000 years ago. I think we will find man more A417+ men, and I recommend the A417 test to all I-L233 "Western" men. Please feel free to email with any questions.

Friday, September 5, 2014

Latest I-P37 haplotree

There are interesting new discoveries for several branches of the tree:
--Dinaric (I-CTS5966) can now be divided into several subgroups based on SNPs.
--The Disles group is more complex than previously known: some people who were placed in Disles based on STR markers (and who have paternal ancestry from Great Britain) have the same SNP results as the "Dinaric-cousin" person who is from southern Poland. Other Disles men are in the I-L621* group as shown on this tree,
--I-L161 ("Isles): There is one SNP found in  Isles-C but not in Isles-A, B, D. And there are three SNPs found in Isles-D but not in Isles-A, B, C. 
--I-L233 ("Western"): there are at least two important SNPs that split I-L233. This is so new that it's not shown on this tree. One of these, A417, is available for individual testing at FTDNA and  Another SNP called Y4223 is even more common than A417, Y4223 is available at YSeq but not yet at FTDNA.

Remember that this tree is preliminary and may change with new information. And not all branches and not all SNPs are shown.

To get an idea of how large each of these branches is, and where each branch is found, take a look at the groupings at the FTDNA I-P37 project: